Newton's law of gravity passes its biggest test

(science.org)

53 points | by pseudolus 2 hours ago

3 comments

  • Lvl999Noob 59 minutes ago
    I thought newtonian gravity was already proven to be inaccurate with Einstein's Special Relativity (or General Relativity?) giving better results on cosmic scales (basically analogous to an approximation vs an exact formula)?
    • magicalhippo 44 minutes ago
      General Relativity reduces to Newtonian gravity as the curvature goes to zero, that is when you're very far away from objects relative to their masses, for slow non-relativistic objects like stars and galaxies.

      Galaxies are typically so far away from another they're almost like point sources to each other, hence Newtonian gravity explains their motion very well.

      However, inside galaxies things do not behave as expected, as stars in almost all the galaxies we've measured does not move like Newtonian (nor GR) behaves based on the matter in the galaxy we see. One alternative to the mainstream theories of dark matter is to modify Newtonian gravity, called MOND.

      This work tested if MOND fit the motion of galaxies in galaxy clusters. They found it did not.

      MOND already does not explain other phenomena that dark matter can so it's not terribly surprising. Here[1] is a nice accessible talk going through all the evidence for dark matter.

      But it is technically a possibility that there's two things are going on, something MOND-like as well as dark matter, so worth checking.

      [1]: https://pirsa.org/26030070

    • GuB-42 46 minutes ago
      At these scales (entire galaxies, very weak forces), it doesn't make a significant difference.

      There are ways of adapting MOND to match general relativity, should it turn to be correct at explaining what it is supposed to explain (like the movement of galaxies).

    • DonaldFisk 44 minutes ago
      General Relativity. It explained the anomaly in the precession of Mercury's perihelion, and the bending of starlight by the Sun (double the value predicted by Newton's law).

      The test here is for the inverse square law of gravity. The rival theory in this case isn't GR, but MOND: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modified_Newtonian_dynamics

  • GuB-42 1 hour ago
    If you follow Sabine Hossenfelder's channel, she has a MONDOmeter. With MOND (modified Newtonian gravity) on one side and dark matter on the other side.

    As new papers come out the needle goes back and forth, and I guess that she will make a new video if she hasn't already, with the needle moving one step towards dark matter.

    I find it interesting how it doesn't seem to settle. Dark matter is still the favorite, but there is a lot of back and forth between "MOND is dead" and "we found new stuff we couldn't explain with dark matter, but it matches MOND predictions".

    • cowl 4 minutes ago
      It's funny how for MOND we cant accept that it has some unknowns yet but we are more than willing to accept the FULL UNKNOWN Dark Matter. it's easy. put "Dark" in front of something and you don't have to explain it at all, no matter that something else explains at least 60-70% instead of 0.
    • PaulHoule 1 hour ago
      MOND does amazingly well at galactic rotation curves, less well at anything else. If you think it started with Vera Rubin in 1966 MOND seems natural, but if you know that it started with Fritz Zwicky in 1933 than dark matter is easier to believe.
    • elashri 36 minutes ago
      MOND is dead is a true statement if we say MOND is dead as a general theory of gravity. It does not mean is does not have its success with explaining galactic rotation curves but failing at mostly everything else.
    • cwmma 36 minutes ago
      my understanding is that there are a few MOND champions who are still holding on to the idea while everyone else has moved on.
    • ReptileMan 1 hour ago
      Once I joked that a lot of things in the universe make sense if you view it as a "simulation with optimizations like lazy loading".
      • sebzim4500 1 hour ago
        Yeah until you get to quantum computing and then it seems as if the universe is doing enormously more work than you would think necessary.
        • cvoss 52 minutes ago
          This comment and GP are two of the most concise and punchy descriptions I've ever heard of some of the deepest aspects of modern physics. On the one hand we have principles of locality and finite propagation speed, which limit the computational work to a small neighborhood, and on the other hand we have principles of non-locality and superposition, which cause the computation to explode as it swallows up potentially everything and every possible thing.
          • davrosthedalek 19 minutes ago
            It might just be a reflection of the architecture the universe simulation is running on...
        • ReptileMan 38 minutes ago
          But only if someone observes it. The act of observation forces reality into existence.
      • nathan_compton 1 hour ago
        Everything we don't understand we conceptualize using the most similar tools which we do have command over.
  • Michael666 17 minutes ago
    [flagged]