> It was already widely understood that projective geometry allowed one to represent rotations and translations in R^3
with a single linear operator on R^4.
I think it's projection operators (in linear algebra) that allow one to do that, not projective geometry [1]. The latter, AIUI, studies projective spaces and projective transformations on them (which differ from vector spaces and their transformations by including "points at infinity"), contains no concepts of length or angle (and therefore no equivalent of translations and rotations) and is in some sense "geometry with only the straightedge, no compass".
Curious if I'm just missing something there, though. I'm no expert on any of this.
From a mathematician's point of view, yes, you should write the Maxwell field equations, at least to see it once, that way because you're showing a very low-level symmetry that even the differential forms approach doesn't get all the way to. Differential forms is a standard approach for general relativity, e.g. MTW.
I guess the people pushing this are a little pushy, but this reminds me of the whole pie fight over the Rust community. OK, so they're pushy. Nothing to do with the merits or demerits of the language (or of C for that matter).
If you're a baby duck about linear algebra and geometry, there's no need to care about different formalisms. Do whatever works. But it's interesting to see how all of this stuff comes together at different levels, whether it's the geometric product, differential forms, or just linear algebra.
> From a mathematician's point of view, yes, you should write the Maxwell field equations, at least to see it once, that way because you're showing a very low-level symmetry that even the differential forms approach doesn't get all the way to. Differential forms is a standard approach for general relativity, e.g. MTW.
While it's neat to write them all as one equation, I disagree that it's an enlightening perspective to learn. While it seems like writing Maxwell's equations in one equation instead of two is a step forward with even more symmetry, what is actually going on is that you are obscuring the most important part of Maxwell's equations: the gauge structure. Without this, it actually becomes much more hidden just how geometric electromagnetism is.
When you write Maxwell's equations as the pair `dF = 0`, `d*F = J`, the first of those two equations is exactly what tells you that this is a gauge theory, and thus may write `F = dA` where `A` is a vector potential. This vector potential then becomes the connection which defines a covariant derivative in a fibre bundle, and one then sees that charged particles follow geodesics now in spacetime, but in an enclosing fibre bundle. This is foundationally important to modern physics, and IMO obscured by writing Maxwell's equations as `∇F = J`
____
n.b. I'm not a particularly big fan of differential forms either, I think it leaves a lot to be desired, and it's super awkward to constantly have to pull out Hodge Duals every time you want to do something that involves the metric, but I'm also unconvinced that geometric algebra is the answer here.
What interests a mathematician isn't 100% the same as what interests the physicist. All I'm saying is there is some math there that's interesting and people should see it once for the math.
The space time approach with E as t wedge x and B as x wedge y is purely linear algebra, not differential forms.
As opposed to the weird GA form it actually makes the physically most meaningful symmetry (Lorentz transformations) explicit. That's why it's actually used in Physics.
Anti symmetric space time tensors are the absolute standard. Further formulations that reveal other aspects, dualities, symmetries are much more niche and specialized subjects and not how the subject should be taught when first encountering it.
Those quadratic forms loop in some nice structure for modeling all kinds of geometric problems with high level control that's hard to articulate so concisely otherwise. Conformal geometric algebra is awesome to work with, have you tried it?
But mostly the broad strokes points about the community are exactly the kind of hostility that makes geometric algebra communities so refreshing for curious young people. Geometric algebra is a welcoming pedagogy and community as much as it is a mathematical framework. If only mathematics as a whole was more welcoming.
I started out on with shaky linear algebra despite years of undergraduate education, but plenty of curiosity and intuition. The geometric algebra community schooled me and me prepared me for all kinds of "real math".
Yes the attitude that geometric algebra is the best language for everything is misguided and welcomes a lot of confusion, but most serious geometric algebra people I've met don't actually think that or say that. They're just off doing cool stuff.
100 percent agree with the article. Wedge products are fundamental, GA is weird ideology.
I had the bad fortune of reviewing some GA research articles once upon a time. It was almost embarrassing. Everything of substance had been published in a conceptually cleaner bivector language previously. The only "contribution" was writing everything in terms of weirder, more convoluted concepts that contributed neither technical clarity nor conceptual parsimony.,
Is there another mathematician (likely an analyst) out there that finds this debate even more absurd with the existence of geometric measure theory? GMT bypasses all of these algebraic constructions; it finds very similar objects (currents and varifolds), but it just makes more sense to me. I never found the exterior algebra (or the Clifford algebra) to be a natural way of thinking geometrically. I do not agree that the exterior product is more natural than Jacobians and determinants. I was relieved to find that GMT cut through all of it at higher generality, at least for my purposes anyway. I don't think this belief is shared by many, since GMT is apparently notoriously incomprehensible, but hey, maybe there's someone else out there?
It's a very fun framework when you're learning it. It constantly feels like you're learning something extremely profound and useful, but I've also found that feeling to be a bit of a mirage.
Despite trying many times to make greater use of it, I've found that it often just makes a lot of actual physics work less clear, and with very little practical benefit.
There's times where it affords quite pretty notation, but often you have to actually unpeel all that notation before you actually do something with it. And what's the point of nice notation if none of your colleagues can even read it? The only time I ever really found that GA was actually a benefit to me was performing rotations.
With my limited knowledge, I read through it stumbling along, and from what I gather, this GA is not Clifford Algebra, and the argument is that the GA movement itself is misguided, and that combining operators and geometric objects without distinguishing between them is problematic.
From a programmer's perspective, it seems like they're saying it's a flawed abstraction, while the GA stance is different. I'd like to hear the other side of the argument too. I'm sure HN will get a long GA comment thread, so from their standpoint, what would it feel like? I agree that merging objects and operators is problematic, but I'm curious what the GA camp would say
Reading this article, I think there are quite a few interesting points to consider further. C started as a DSL for the Unix kernel. JavaScript is also a DSL, and successful languages are often described as DSLs in certain respects. Then, as they grow and gain broader adoption, they evolve into general purpose languages.
But if you think about it the other way around, since all programs are ultimately about data transformation, you could argue that UIs should essentially be drawn in SQL, but that would sound strange. That's because the tools we use have moved away from that mental model. (Though React's FRP premise does lean in that direction.)
And when I think about why languages split apart, it seems to me that it's because the word 'programming' covers so many different things at once. Languages end up diverging because they serve different purposes. In fact, as a programmer, I see programming languages as a collection of tools that essentially decide what to give up. C gives you safety and low-level hardware access through its ABI. Python gives you expressiveness. They exist because their target goals are fundamentally different.
In that sense, though I'm not an expert in this field, from my limited perspective this debate feels like it's just the noise that arises when Algebra tries to encompass too much and inevitably splits apart. I imagine these kinds of cases will only increase in the future. As things become more specialized, there will be more situations where existing frameworks don't fit, and new systems will be needed. Is there a term for this phenomenon? At that point, we might say we need to change the old system to fit the new one.
Personally, I wonder if there isn't a general purpose language at the bottom that models the entire world, with other languages layered on top of it.
> As I see it, GA is not so much a subject as an ideological position, consisting of basically two ideological claims about the world:
> Claim 1: That the concepts of EA (so, wedge products, multivectors, duality, contraction) are incredibly powerful and ought to be used everywhere, starting at a much lower level of math pedagogy—basically rewriting classical linear algebra and vector calculus.
I support this claim, so I suppose I’m a proponent of geometric algebra.
I think it’s more or less been carried out for vector calculus by Spivak’s “classical” Calculus on Manifolds, which is somewhat widely taught.
> Claim 2: That the Geometric Product (henceforth: GP) should be added to that list as the most fundamental operation, where by “fundamental” I mean that other operations should be constructed in terms of it, and theorems should be stated using it.
Like the author, I also believe this claim is nonsense.
“Rewriting classical linear algebra” is a honored pastime but it’s very difficult to make any headway doing it—the classical texts are classical for a reason, we more or less know how to teach them as an “80% solution” and it’s unclear that the investment in a new pedagogy would get us to an “81% solution.”
Especially with today’s undergrads. If you’re not churning arithmetic, they’re not into it.
More or less agreed. I think though that one reason the geometric product is so tempting is that if you take matrix representations of all of these objects, then the geometric product is literally just straightforward matrix multiplication.
Because of that, it just becomes so tempting to try and phrase everything you can in terms of this geometric product. I'm very sympathetic to the temptation, and I even think the geometric product has some great uses (it shows up a lot in some physics I do), and using it makes writing rotations a treat, but I think it's still vastly overemphasized by GA people.
I still don't really know what my favoured notation for differential geometry is, I find myself switching around so much.
Interesting. To summarize your argument: the current state of Algebra is like an 80 point solution, but to push it a few points higher requires an enormous cognitive load, and the question is whether that's really worth it, even from an educational perspective. As mentioned in another comment, this is exactly the kind of issue that comes up in Rust discussions. It seems the argument from the GA camp is that top tier mathematicians are already using these tools just fine without needing to talk about it in that way, so there's no reason for it to become general purpose. Thank you for explaining it in a way that's easy to understand. But on the other hand, maybe anomalies like these could actually become generally useful concepts. Thanks for the comment. upvoted!
As someone who studies physics and then went into a long IT career (but kept reading papers casually), my view is that this whole GA saga is very reminiscent of how after decades of experience, I still can't convince juniors of the benefits of what I now consider obvious best practices. No amount of demonstrations of the blindingly obvious improvement of some better technique seems to work on someone who "finally got the thing to work".[1]
Certain kinds of perfect correctness are like pure and shining crystallised bits of refined knowledge created by the greatest wizards. "Parse, don't validate" or "Make invalid states unrepresentable." ought to be familiar to the better programmers here, the ones with decades of experience built on iterative, collaborative foundations with real consequences for error.
Theoretical physics doesn't have those same consequences, because there is no real punishment for their equivalent of "spaghetti code". Perversely, there's cachet to be gained for gaining understanding of its unnecessarily esoteric knowledge, much like how biologists and lawyers spend half a decade or more studying... Latin.[2]
Introducing Geometric Algebra to physics is like that wizard coder who sweeps away reams of spaghetti code and replaces it all with a call to a single standard library function. It's that "cheff's kiss" of cleanup. Meanwhile the juniors are screaming about how the senior "deleted all their hard work!"
Meanwhile, I never understood where Pauli and Dirac matrices came from! It's like they were pulled from fat air.
You've seen this in code, I bet. Some junior worked really hard on solving a problem and wrote a solid screen-filling wall of "a && b || c || !d && e && (f || g)..." continuing up to "ba, bc, bd", etc.. as they ran out single letters until they're well into the alphabet in double-character symbols.[3]
That's what those matrices are. Someone's hacky attempt at "making things work".
The problem is that we gave those people Nobel prizes and told everyone they're geniuses.
They are, but they were like that brilliant junior. Brilliant.. but junior.
Geometric Algebra sweeps all of that into one beautiful, consistent, crystal clear abstraction that is widely applicable. The magic matrix constants vanish. Bugs in 100-year-old textbook formulas suddenly come to light. Dozens of formulas, one set for each of the 1D, 2D, 3D, and 4D cases collapse into a single formula valid for any number of dimensions.
It's like watching someone struggle with "catching every possible instance of JavaScript injection".
No son, no. Just no. Stop enumerating badness. Stop. Just stop. Escape everything at the boundary instead, enforced by the type system. You'll thank me later.
I know it might be obvious to you, and you always use properly parameterised SQL queries or whatever. This is not the norm everywhere! I still get arguments, long drawn out arguments from people convinced that this is unnecessary and just one more search & replace is all they need to be safe from the bad hackers.
Physicists (and mathematicians) are still making that argument against GA.
"It's isomorphic!"
"That isn't the point!"
[1] You can't convince someone to climb Everest if they struggled to hike up to the top of one of its foothills.
[2] Let me be crystal clear: They're spending their precious time on this Earth learning a dead language instead of learning about the law or bugs. No amount of arguments will sway me. The bugs don't care what you call them. Criminals are guilty or innocent whether or not you speak funny in court. You've just made a simple thing harder for no good reason, that is all. Please stop.
[3] Yes, I've seen this. Twice, from two different people whom have never met. Aliens are amongst us.
We run into these kinds of issues quite often. I also majored in physics, but unlike you, I dropped out of my master's program (I just didn't have the talent. Given my generally limited intelligence, it was probably an inevitable outcome). From what I've read, the article seems to be arguing against the claim that because so many anomalies have accumulated in the field of GA, it's now ready to become a general purpose tool. Your argument appears to be that GA has been nicely organized as a standard library, essentially defining invalid states. So it's a high level abstraction perspective, but on the other hand, I think it could also be framed as a case against excessive abstraction. Interesting
> It was already widely understood that projective geometry allowed one to represent rotations and translations in R^3 with a single linear operator on R^4.
I think it's projection operators (in linear algebra) that allow one to do that, not projective geometry [1]. The latter, AIUI, studies projective spaces and projective transformations on them (which differ from vector spaces and their transformations by including "points at infinity"), contains no concepts of length or angle (and therefore no equivalent of translations and rotations) and is in some sense "geometry with only the straightedge, no compass".
Curious if I'm just missing something there, though. I'm no expert on any of this.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projective_geometry
I guess the people pushing this are a little pushy, but this reminds me of the whole pie fight over the Rust community. OK, so they're pushy. Nothing to do with the merits or demerits of the language (or of C for that matter).
If you're a baby duck about linear algebra and geometry, there's no need to care about different formalisms. Do whatever works. But it's interesting to see how all of this stuff comes together at different levels, whether it's the geometric product, differential forms, or just linear algebra.
While it's neat to write them all as one equation, I disagree that it's an enlightening perspective to learn. While it seems like writing Maxwell's equations in one equation instead of two is a step forward with even more symmetry, what is actually going on is that you are obscuring the most important part of Maxwell's equations: the gauge structure. Without this, it actually becomes much more hidden just how geometric electromagnetism is.
When you write Maxwell's equations as the pair `dF = 0`, `d*F = J`, the first of those two equations is exactly what tells you that this is a gauge theory, and thus may write `F = dA` where `A` is a vector potential. This vector potential then becomes the connection which defines a covariant derivative in a fibre bundle, and one then sees that charged particles follow geodesics now in spacetime, but in an enclosing fibre bundle. This is foundationally important to modern physics, and IMO obscured by writing Maxwell's equations as `∇F = J`
____
n.b. I'm not a particularly big fan of differential forms either, I think it leaves a lot to be desired, and it's super awkward to constantly have to pull out Hodge Duals every time you want to do something that involves the metric, but I'm also unconvinced that geometric algebra is the answer here.
As opposed to the weird GA form it actually makes the physically most meaningful symmetry (Lorentz transformations) explicit. That's why it's actually used in Physics.
Anti symmetric space time tensors are the absolute standard. Further formulations that reveal other aspects, dualities, symmetries are much more niche and specialized subjects and not how the subject should be taught when first encountering it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covariant_formulation_of_class...
But mostly the broad strokes points about the community are exactly the kind of hostility that makes geometric algebra communities so refreshing for curious young people. Geometric algebra is a welcoming pedagogy and community as much as it is a mathematical framework. If only mathematics as a whole was more welcoming.
I started out on with shaky linear algebra despite years of undergraduate education, but plenty of curiosity and intuition. The geometric algebra community schooled me and me prepared me for all kinds of "real math".
Yes the attitude that geometric algebra is the best language for everything is misguided and welcomes a lot of confusion, but most serious geometric algebra people I've met don't actually think that or say that. They're just off doing cool stuff.
I had the bad fortune of reviewing some GA research articles once upon a time. It was almost embarrassing. Everything of substance had been published in a conceptually cleaner bivector language previously. The only "contribution" was writing everything in terms of weirder, more convoluted concepts that contributed neither technical clarity nor conceptual parsimony.,
That reminds me, I’ve been meaning to rewrite parts of Hormander’s epic with tools from GMT but never found the time.
Despite trying many times to make greater use of it, I've found that it often just makes a lot of actual physics work less clear, and with very little practical benefit.
There's times where it affords quite pretty notation, but often you have to actually unpeel all that notation before you actually do something with it. And what's the point of nice notation if none of your colleagues can even read it? The only time I ever really found that GA was actually a benefit to me was performing rotations.
From a programmer's perspective, it seems like they're saying it's a flawed abstraction, while the GA stance is different. I'd like to hear the other side of the argument too. I'm sure HN will get a long GA comment thread, so from their standpoint, what would it feel like? I agree that merging objects and operators is problematic, but I'm curious what the GA camp would say
But if you think about it the other way around, since all programs are ultimately about data transformation, you could argue that UIs should essentially be drawn in SQL, but that would sound strange. That's because the tools we use have moved away from that mental model. (Though React's FRP premise does lean in that direction.)
And when I think about why languages split apart, it seems to me that it's because the word 'programming' covers so many different things at once. Languages end up diverging because they serve different purposes. In fact, as a programmer, I see programming languages as a collection of tools that essentially decide what to give up. C gives you safety and low-level hardware access through its ABI. Python gives you expressiveness. They exist because their target goals are fundamentally different.
In that sense, though I'm not an expert in this field, from my limited perspective this debate feels like it's just the noise that arises when Algebra tries to encompass too much and inevitably splits apart. I imagine these kinds of cases will only increase in the future. As things become more specialized, there will be more situations where existing frameworks don't fit, and new systems will be needed. Is there a term for this phenomenon? At that point, we might say we need to change the old system to fit the new one.
Personally, I wonder if there isn't a general purpose language at the bottom that models the entire world, with other languages layered on top of it.
What makes you say that?
> As I see it, GA is not so much a subject as an ideological position, consisting of basically two ideological claims about the world:
> Claim 1: That the concepts of EA (so, wedge products, multivectors, duality, contraction) are incredibly powerful and ought to be used everywhere, starting at a much lower level of math pedagogy—basically rewriting classical linear algebra and vector calculus.
I support this claim, so I suppose I’m a proponent of geometric algebra.
I think it’s more or less been carried out for vector calculus by Spivak’s “classical” Calculus on Manifolds, which is somewhat widely taught.
> Claim 2: That the Geometric Product (henceforth: GP) should be added to that list as the most fundamental operation, where by “fundamental” I mean that other operations should be constructed in terms of it, and theorems should be stated using it.
Like the author, I also believe this claim is nonsense.
“Rewriting classical linear algebra” is a honored pastime but it’s very difficult to make any headway doing it—the classical texts are classical for a reason, we more or less know how to teach them as an “80% solution” and it’s unclear that the investment in a new pedagogy would get us to an “81% solution.”
Especially with today’s undergrads. If you’re not churning arithmetic, they’re not into it.
Because of that, it just becomes so tempting to try and phrase everything you can in terms of this geometric product. I'm very sympathetic to the temptation, and I even think the geometric product has some great uses (it shows up a lot in some physics I do), and using it makes writing rotations a treat, but I think it's still vastly overemphasized by GA people.
I still don't really know what my favoured notation for differential geometry is, I find myself switching around so much.
Certain kinds of perfect correctness are like pure and shining crystallised bits of refined knowledge created by the greatest wizards. "Parse, don't validate" or "Make invalid states unrepresentable." ought to be familiar to the better programmers here, the ones with decades of experience built on iterative, collaborative foundations with real consequences for error.
Theoretical physics doesn't have those same consequences, because there is no real punishment for their equivalent of "spaghetti code". Perversely, there's cachet to be gained for gaining understanding of its unnecessarily esoteric knowledge, much like how biologists and lawyers spend half a decade or more studying... Latin.[2]
Introducing Geometric Algebra to physics is like that wizard coder who sweeps away reams of spaghetti code and replaces it all with a call to a single standard library function. It's that "cheff's kiss" of cleanup. Meanwhile the juniors are screaming about how the senior "deleted all their hard work!"
Meanwhile, I never understood where Pauli and Dirac matrices came from! It's like they were pulled from fat air.
You've seen this in code, I bet. Some junior worked really hard on solving a problem and wrote a solid screen-filling wall of "a && b || c || !d && e && (f || g)..." continuing up to "ba, bc, bd", etc.. as they ran out single letters until they're well into the alphabet in double-character symbols.[3]
That's what those matrices are. Someone's hacky attempt at "making things work".
The problem is that we gave those people Nobel prizes and told everyone they're geniuses.
They are, but they were like that brilliant junior. Brilliant.. but junior.
Geometric Algebra sweeps all of that into one beautiful, consistent, crystal clear abstraction that is widely applicable. The magic matrix constants vanish. Bugs in 100-year-old textbook formulas suddenly come to light. Dozens of formulas, one set for each of the 1D, 2D, 3D, and 4D cases collapse into a single formula valid for any number of dimensions.
It's like watching someone struggle with "catching every possible instance of JavaScript injection".
No son, no. Just no. Stop enumerating badness. Stop. Just stop. Escape everything at the boundary instead, enforced by the type system. You'll thank me later.
I know it might be obvious to you, and you always use properly parameterised SQL queries or whatever. This is not the norm everywhere! I still get arguments, long drawn out arguments from people convinced that this is unnecessary and just one more search & replace is all they need to be safe from the bad hackers.
Physicists (and mathematicians) are still making that argument against GA.
"It's isomorphic!"
"That isn't the point!"
[1] You can't convince someone to climb Everest if they struggled to hike up to the top of one of its foothills.
[2] Let me be crystal clear: They're spending their precious time on this Earth learning a dead language instead of learning about the law or bugs. No amount of arguments will sway me. The bugs don't care what you call them. Criminals are guilty or innocent whether or not you speak funny in court. You've just made a simple thing harder for no good reason, that is all. Please stop.
[3] Yes, I've seen this. Twice, from two different people whom have never met. Aliens are amongst us.