A digestion of the Jacobian conjecture counterexample

(terrytao.wordpress.com)

139 points | by jeremyscanvic 3 hours ago

10 comments

  • vanderZwan 2 hours ago
    > While this is an extremely quick verification, the construction presented in this fashion appears like a massive miracle. The polynomial {F} has degree seven, so a priori the Jacobian {\mathrm{det} DF} ought to be a polynomial in three variables of degree as large as {3 \times 6 = 18}, so the fact that all non-constant coefficients of this polynomial vanish looks like a massive cancellation involving {\binom{18+3}{3}-1 = 1329} coefficients, which is much larger than the {\binom{7+3}{3} = 120} degrees of freedom for a generic degree seven polynomial of three variables. So finding such a polynomial looks highly unlikely to be located by brute force.

    Sounds like the most interesting part would be learning what approaches the LLM did use to see if that's reusable elsewhere. I'm guessing that's what the rest of the article is about? Because I also couldn't follow the maths any more.

  • tptacek 2 hours ago
    The introduction to this piece was easy to follow, but as soon as he got into recapitulating it with algebra he lost me (because I'm bad at math). But he includes the GPT5 prompts for his conversation, which are easier to follow:

    https://chatgpt.com/share/6a5fdc7a-d6f8-83e8-bbea-8deb42cfed...

    • minimaxir 2 hours ago
      Also note the timestamp: he started working on this thread a few hours after the tweet.
    • CamperBob2 9 minutes ago
      I like how he goes one-on-one with it like Gandalf fighting Yoda on fifteen planes at once for 80% of the transcript, and then we read "OK, I've activated Pro."
    • foobarqux 2 hours ago
      [flagged]
      • hackinthebochs 2 hours ago
        A news aggregator is a community above all. Upvoting content that you may not personally be interested in but will attract the right people is a net benefit for the community[1].

        [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44575026

      • Jtarii 2 hours ago
        People are upvoting this because Tao is a celebrity.
        • pavel_lishin 2 hours ago
          I'm upvoting this because it's interesting. I don't have to fully understand something to find it interesting.
          • foobarqux 1 hour ago
            In what way is it interesting compared to the myriad of other posts on this topic that has content you can understand?
            • pavel_lishin 1 hour ago
              It's interesting because I like math, and typically posts like this generate a lot of interesting comments. Plus, in general, I'm wildly disinterested in the AI discourse that eats up 50-75% of the front page, so frankly anything that's slightly more interesting than that gets an upvote from me.
              • foobarqux 1 hour ago
                You seem to be saying that you would upvote an empty article (or a gibberish article) with the title "Jacobian Conjecture Counterexample", is that right?
                • pavel_lishin 18 minutes ago
                  After that kind of a stretch, you're ready for any kind of exercise.
                • godwinson__4-8 30 minutes ago
                  Are you always this subtle?
        • hyperhello 2 hours ago
          He’s famous, but I don’t believe he is a celebrity, as he is not famous for his persona.
          • Jtarii 2 hours ago
            I just mean, anything Tao writes that is related to AI will get on the front page, because Tao represents the authoritative voice of reason using AI tools. And this website is primarily for AI news.
          • alpinisme 2 hours ago
            He’s a hacker news celebrity but not a global celebrity
  • aayushdutt 34 minutes ago
    After reading a quarter of the article I started wondering, is this what non coders feel when vibe coding software?
  • hyperhello 2 hours ago
    Okay. So what does this overturn, intuitively? Can we no longer assume that functions are differentiable at certain points, or something?
    • mswphd 59 minutes ago
      it doesn't overturn much. For example, here is a post from 2004

      https://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=105

      it is about a purported (though incorrect) positive proof of the Jacobian conjecture in 2 dimemnsions. It is true in 1 dimension. The Fable proof is that it is false in >= 3 dimensions. 2 dimensions is still open.

      Anyway, in that post it says

      > It now seems that a proof has been found by Carolyn Dean of the University of Michigan, for the case of polynomials in two complex variables *(for more variables, many people believe it is not even true)*

      so the resolution of this is a "surprise" in that it is a very long open with many failed proof attempts. But the direction it resolved was not surprising.

    • monster_truck 25 minutes ago
      Not much.

      But it does give credible plausibility to the concept that we might be mistaken about the exact boundaries of hardness for adjacent (but not equivalent) polynomial systems. Most (all?) of which have also stood up to a whole lot of undeniably sharp people poking at them for about as long.

    • sfpotter 1 hour ago
      No. This is about polynomials. The assumption that the Jacobian is nowhere zero is what is doing so much of the work. This means the Jacobian must in fact be constant. But obviously there are many mappings whose Jacobians are not constant.
  • jmward01 45 minutes ago
    Finding a different way of thinking about a problem often leads to a breakthrough. This is what an ecosystem in nature shows us, that diversity matters in finding hard solutions. I think the great thing here is we are getting a chance to find whole new ways of thinking about problems that were hard. I suspect many old problems will fall because of it and, hopefully, some really new interesting ones will replace them.
    • gerdesj 10 minutes ago
      "problems that were hard"

      They are still hard problems - As we say in the UK: "one swallow does not a summer make".

      As you well know: birds are not renowned for their arithmetic skills, nor eating encourages the weather!

  • zzzeek 1 hour ago
    reading through this I eventually realized a situation similar to my experience of it is what my dog sees if I attempt to explain Python programming to him.
    • tgrowazay 40 minutes ago
      Some people downvoting you, but I think it is a valuable illustration of IQ gap.

      And chances are that humanity at large will be soon trying to follow ai inventions and discoveries not unlike your dog follows your Python code.

  • drivebyhooting 1 hour ago
    Can we audit the CoT and work the AI did to generate such a remarkable cancellation?
    • castedo 49 minutes ago
      I doubt Anthropic will share the details (or at least the full true details). The mystery of the magic makes for much better marketing.

      I think a reasonable assumption is that there is an interaction between an LLM, a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_algebra_system tool, a human prompting with deep math expertise, and lots of compute that explains hitting upon the remarkable cancellation.

      • tptacek 23 minutes ago
        I think you can reasonably assume that frontier models are using SymPy or something like it any time interesting math gets into the picture, and the person driving Fable here is an accomplished mathematician, but I don't think we can reasonably assume either extensive prompting or brute-force compute in any sense other than what it normally takes Fable to, say, whip up a calculator app.
      • jasonfarnon 38 minutes ago
        Not just an assumption, I saw the LLM saying it used sympy.
      • p-e-w 42 minutes ago
        > a human prompting with deep math expertise

        The original tweet implied that the whole thing was done while the author was watching the World Cup final.

        I know it’s tempting to hope that a human did the “real” work here, but if some special insight was put into prompting, the author kept it to himself, and there is no reason why they would hide this since it would elevate their own status.

    • netvarun 20 minutes ago
  • ChrisArchitect 2 hours ago
    Related:

    Claude Fable produced a counterexample to the Jacobian Conjecture

    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48973869

    Human mathematicians are being outcounterexampled

    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48983382

  • brcmthrowaway 1 hour ago
    [dead]
  • greenavocado 3 hours ago
    [flagged]
    • fhdkweig 2 hours ago
      Honest question. Does asking "make no mistakes" actually change the output? Does it make mistakes if you don't bother to ask for no mistakes? Is it just to make the human feel more secure?
      • minimaxir 2 hours ago
        It's a meme. Telling it to "make no mistakes" doesn't do anything because LLMs don't have an inherent concept of a mistake and they are already RLHFed to code correctly.

        However, if you tell it to not do particular behaviors explicitly—some of which would be considered mistakes—it will not do said behaviors and with enough checks and balances, you'll get output without "mistakes".

        One example of this from the OpenAI Unit Distance prompt: https://cdn.openai.com/pdf/04d1d1e4-bc75-476a-97cf-49055cd98...

        > Do not return merely because current approaches fail or agents report theorem-strength gaps. Continue launching new rounds, reopening blocked approaches only when there is a genuinely new mechanism, and searching for fresh formulations. Return only when a complete affirmative proof has been found and survives adversarial audit.

        > Do not return a reduction, partial result, isolated missing lemma, “best effort” summary, or explanation of why the problem is difficult.

        • wren6991 21 minutes ago
          I like the explicit and imperative style of this prompt. Makes me feel like LLMs are just weird Turing machines and CoT is their tape.
        • dcrazy 1 hour ago
          There really was a time when “make no mistakes” was thought to increase response quality. Maybe it steered the content of the thought channel?
      • saganus 2 hours ago
        It's just a meme at this point.
      • jewel 2 hours ago
        I believe it's a reference to a joke meme that goes something like "Write Windows 12 from scratch. Make no mistakes." At least that's the first context I heard it in.
      • hyperhello 2 hours ago
        It will make mistakes if you tell it to, so I assume it will make no mistakes if you tell it not to.
        • none_to_remain 2 hours ago
          When this news came out I amused myself by asking Claude to prove that 0.999... != 1. First it did so for the hyperreals. To do it for the reals I had to tell it it was allowed to make mistakes, although it didn't end up interestingly wrong - just very fuzzy and vague.
          • greenavocado 1 hour ago
            Fable, prove that for every positive integer n, repeatedly dividing by 2 if even or multiplying by 3 and adding 1 if odd will always eventually reduce the sequence to 1.
      • greenavocado 1 hour ago
        > Does asking "make no mistakes" actually change the output?

        Why Teams Add "Make No Mistakes" to AI Prompts (And Why It Never Works)

        https://jakemcmahon.github.io/medium-articles/make-no-mistak...