25 Years of Mass Surveillance Is Enough

(schneier.com)

222 points | by iamnothere 2 hours ago

9 comments

  • RajT88 59 minutes ago
    > It says that the government “will prioritize the rapid identification and neutralization of violent secular political groups whose ideology is anti-American, radically pro-transgender and anarchist” and “will use all the tools constitutionally available to us to map them at home, identify their membership, map their ties to international organizations like Antifa.”

    So, Democratic candidates who are looking like they will win a seat this midterm cycle are going to get arrested for "domestic terrorism".

    • rickdeckard 41 minutes ago
      Of course, because by the new definition, the leader is "peak American", so everything in collision with his view is naturally "anti-American".

      The usage of the term "anti-American" by anyone in a public role should be rejected as insufficient definition and unfit for a representative to use. On the spot, immediately.

      Is it anti-American to brush your teeth after breakfast? or rather before? Is both American? Neither of it?

      • smallmancontrov 20 minutes ago
        When Trump calls Democrats "enemies from within," that's anti-American.

        When Trump refuses to peacefully transfer power to his victorious opponent and instead plays "heads I win tails you cheated," that's anti-American.

        When Trump sends the FCC chair to suppress speech "we can do this the easy way or the hard way," or yucks it up with the president of El Salvador over suspending Habeas Corpus, that's anti-American.

        The "American Experiment" isn't an empty concept, but it is about democracy and law and rights as opposed to conservative cultural values, and when people in power start to argue that the former must be sacrificed for the latter they certainly deserve to be clowned on. Not because they are wrong to imagine an American Ideal, but because they have its contents exactly backwards.

      • cucumber3732842 15 minutes ago
        While the exact point at which it becomes "anti-american" isn't clear there's certainly a category of rhetoric in which people peddle subservience to the state (usually dressed up in obfuscating words, like they'll use "society" instead of "the government") that is undeniably "anti-american" except perhaps by some obtuse technical interpretation of all the words. And I will die on the hill that those who peddle such ideals are bad people and ought to be looked down upon the same way we'd look down upon someone peddling phrenology as a basis for racism.
    • asaddhamani 50 minutes ago
      As a trans woman, enough is enough! I’m tired of us being made into the scapegoat while literal pedophiles and sexual criminals not only walk free but gain ever greater power and idiots keep blaming us for their problems as they close their ears and stomp their feet’s on the ground
      • ToucanLoucan 45 minutes ago
        As a fellow trans woman, we've been the scapegoat for reactionaries, at least documented, since the rise of the Third Reich. And if we're honest, probably before that.

        Fixing society-scale problems is really hard. Being angry at people who make you feel a bit weird inside is easy. People reliably choose easy.

        • cik 29 minutes ago
          I'm not going to pretend to understand your stuggle, but I will echo it through my lens. I am not trying to hijack your point, inasmuch support it with my view.

          I uses to think that it was about fear of the unknown, or as you've said "Being angry at people who make you feel a bit weird inside".

          I now firmly believe that it's a modern form of tribalism. Having an "other", whether as a scapegoat, a fear inducing device, or a target is simply too convenient to ignore. Whether or not one is a globalist is orthogonal to the fact that people ultimately decide, or evolve to see through a different lens.

          • RajT88 23 minutes ago
            I would say it slightly differently: humans themselves are tribalistic, and politicians are looking for ways to tap into that to gain and hold onto power.
      • mschuster91 35 minutes ago
        but... but the bathrooms! and the children's sports! /s

        it's still baffling to me how incredibly irrelevant niche cases dominate the entire discourse.

        • matchbok3 26 minutes ago
          They do it because it wins them elections. It's a 90/10 issue and national democrats are on the losing side.
        • ToucanLoucan 33 minutes ago
          Because Republicans get fucking dog-walked on any issue of any importance. The only things they can ever even come close to claiming "victory" on are irrelevant nonsense that no serious person gives a fuck about.

          There are now more bills attempting to "solve" the problem of trans girl's in sports (and it is girls, to be clear, trans boys are never an issue) than there are trans girls in sports. It's fucking pathetic.

          • RajT88 26 minutes ago
            The funny thing about that is - it's a solved problem. The reason you heard about it for a while is that they hadn't tightened up the rules yet. As with anything, problems are highlighted, they are studied, and new rules are put into place to account for what was learned. Right wing media of course discovered a boogeyman that was so useful they will be using it for years still, even if it doesn't exist.
            • asaddhamani 9 minutes ago
              It wasn’t a problem to begin with. Meta studies recently showed trans women have no biological advantage over cis women after HRT. All the rule updates did was exclude and further marginalise an already marginalised extreme minority. There are very few trans women to begin with, fewer of us still are competing in sports. Nothing was studied here, the people who made the rules aren’t scholars, they’re bigots.
              • ToucanLoucan 5 minutes ago
                And as a fellow enjoyer of HRT, I assure you it didn't enhance shit for me, beyond what I was hoping to get: longer, more full hair, boobies, and smoother skin.

                My muscles are gone y'all. Like I've had to buy more breaker bars and larger tools so I can keep working on my cars, otherwise I simply could not break bolts anymore.

                • asaddhamani 1 minute ago
                  I used to be able to do 12 pull-ups, and I did get de-trained but now I can barely manage a single one. I lived and did cardio in the mountains for years and now I get winded up way easier. Maybe the politicians making these rules should go on HRT before making unsubstantiated claims.
    • vrganj 19 minutes ago
      Heh, now as an Austrian, why does that all sound so familiar?

      > The police, "suspecting the conflagration to be the first of a series of Communist acts of terrorism", have arrested a number of Communist leaders.

      https://www.theguardian.com/news/1933/mar/28/leadersandreply...

      Huh.

    • chinathrow 56 minutes ago
      That's inline whit some of the goals of the people behind Project 2025 are calling for.
      • criddell 23 minutes ago
        Can you be more specific?
  • N_Lens 1 hour ago
    Surveillance and totalitarian control is a downward spiral of misery and suffering for everyone, even those in power.

    It reminds me of some quotes from the Tao Te Ching -

    Restriction breeds the disorder it's meant to prevent (ch. 57) The more prohibitions there are in the world, the poorer the people become. The more sharp weapons, the more the state falls into confusion. The more laws and edicts are posted, the more thieves and bandits there are.

    The world isn't a thing to be managed (ch. 29) The world is a sacred vessel; it cannot be manipulated. Whoever acts on it ruins it; whoever grips it loses it.

    • api 1 hour ago
      Yet there's incentive structures that push it forward.

      It's a classic example of us being dragged along by incentives and emergent patterns against our individual wills and better judgement.

      People think it's a conspiracy of the elite, but the last part of your message is true and it makes me wonder to what extent everyone is being dragged along by everyone else and nobody can stop because nobody can stop.

      I mean if I were a multi-billionaire, I'm not sure I could do anything. I could piss into the wind with a somewhat larger amount of piss.

      I've come to believe that our lack of agency over emergent behaviors in our own societies and economies is a central problem of the human condition.

      • hkpack 9 minutes ago
        [delayed]
      • N_Lens 18 minutes ago
        I mostly agree with your take. The ultra wealthy are entrapped by their own minds & machines of wealth that have tight demands.
    • cineticdaffodil 58 minutes ago
      [dead]
  • smalltorch 2 hours ago
    It's a great write up thankyou. I propose we build and distribute easy to use services designed to run on our own devices, in our own homes, to take full advantage of 1st and 4th amendments, then distribute these services widely with billboards so that people have alternatives and can take advantage of these protections.
    • tacomagick 1 hour ago
      We are trying, but the interop of these self hosted services currently suck. Fediverse is hard to get in to unless you have many users or you just have to join a popular instance. Who knows what they do in this instance, and it turns back into a loop.
      • convolvatron 47 minutes ago
        I just don't think it's gotten to the point that anyone is interested. I wonder if we did do a better job that the aggressive filtering and monitoring wouldn't naturally move down the stack.

        for example we could completely obviate Facebook by having a standard mechanism for something like an rss feed. individuals or organizations could publish my stream(s) from their own leaf connections, set up cloud instances, or pay someone to host them. there could be a whole ecosystem of readers with various UIs and policy filters. people/organizations could add value by aggregating trusted streams or filtering them for content some people might find offensive. and at the end of the day it doesn't require people who just want to use it to set up persistent networking and storage.

        in any case we just got suckered into handing the keys to the internet to companies like Meta and Google, which make vast amounts of money to control the discourse in corrosive ways. all because we bought into the notion that nothing is real unless someone is making a buck off it.

        having a standard and a whole space of compatible programs doesn't preclude people from making lifestyle money selling filters and aggregators and content, but it kind of removes the Meta-style leverage over the whole system.

    • Joker_vD 1 hour ago
      You mean the 3rd amendment, right?
    • 8by3 2 hours ago
      [dead]
  • FLeXMurphy 27 minutes ago
    No Comrade Premier, it has only just begun.
    • _bobm 25 minutes ago
      Hear, hear!
  • choonway 11 minutes ago
    mass surveillance is like nuclear weapons.

    it will never go away.

  • Havoc 32 minutes ago
    At this stage I'd settle for echelon era surveillance and consider it a win...

    Ad tech/tiktok has proven its possible to deduce what people are think at scale from subtle signals, now sifting info at scale is possible thanks to LLMs and a large portion of everyone's online history is likely to become vulnerable to store now decrypt later attacks. Get rid of cash, force identity verification for every online service, sprinkle some flock cameras on top and you've got a complete surveillance state. Oh and of course you need some goons to scare people into compliance & later in some self-censorship for good measure. We could call the group "Frozen water".

    ...and we're basically already there on all of it except perhaps the "decrypt later" on https (and even that has rumours).

    Genuinely don't think this is stoppable anymore.

  • ReptileMan 1 hour ago
    Mate I am afraid the world governments are just starting.
  • lapcat 42 minutes ago
    Our corrupt duopolist politicians, who are bought and owned by the military-industrial complex, continue to vote to renew all of this. There's no "resistance". Some claim that Trump is a fascist but nonetheless rubber stamp the imperial Presidency.

    The US Constitution is intentionally anti-democratic (small "d'), plutocratic, to protect the interests of the founding plutocrats. But at the time, the US was a preindustrial, agrarian nation, in which the fastest mode of communication and transportation was the horse. The concentration of power that has become possible now due to technology was inconceivable by the founders. I fear that nothing short of another American revolution can solve this problem; but that would surely be horribly bloody, as with most revolutions.