Without the Hot Air

(withouthotair.com)

31 points | by 0sake_rs 1 hour ago

8 comments

  • nirinor 2 minutes ago
    Actually, the better link might have been <https://withouthotair.org/changes>.

    Note the .com->.org: its a version of the book whose numbers are maintained here <https://github.com/life-itself/without-hot-air/commits/main/>.

  • _aavaa_ 44 minutes ago
    The books is good(ish) for it's time, but some of its analysis and forecasts are fundamentally flawed since it falls for the primary energy fallacy by comparing the chemical potential energy (in J) directly to electrical energy (also in J). The two are fundamentally different things and called be compared 1:1. E.g. To heat up your home with natural gas you need ~1J of chemical energy to get 1J of heat into the home, but with a electric heat pump you only need 1/6 J to get 1J of heat.

    It is also a product of its time in terms of wind/solar vs nuclear. His forecasts of the impact of solar and wind is based on prices and performance from 2008. Prices have come down an order of magnitude since then, and performance and lifespan have increased drastically.

    • azornathogron 30 minutes ago
      Heat pumps, and their efficiency (getting more than X Joules of heating for X Joules of electricity) are discussed in chapter 21 Smarter Heating, see for example the diagram and discussion on page 150: https://www.withouthotair.com/c21/page_150.shtml

      I imagine the economics (and perhaps technical improvements) of some things may have changed more than the book could forecast. But heat pumps were definitely understood by the author.

      • _aavaa_ 15 minutes ago
        I’m not saying he was unaware of heat pumps, I’m saying he’s comparing apples to oranges simply because they use the same units.

        Look at “3 - Cars” on page 29. He says the typical car uses 40 kWh/day. 40 kWh of what? Chemical energy in the gasoline.

        The go to page 33 where he looks at how much energy onshore wind could produce per days in the UK. His number is 20 kWh/d. 20 kWh of what? electricity

        He then compares those two numbers directly and uses that comparison as the basis of his arguments: “Britain’s onshore wind energy resource may be “huge,” but it’s evi- dently not as huge as our huge consumption.”

        This is simply incorrect. A combustion engine converts less than half of the chemical energy in the gasoline into mechanical work that can move the car. The electric model converts >90% of it. So we don’t have to replace 40 kWh/day, we have to replace less than half of that since the electric process is more efficient.

        This same issues, the primary energy fallacy, underpins large parts of the book.

        • js8 1 minute ago
          I think in 2008, it wasn't clear whether cars are going to be replaced by electric and what the final efficiency will be. It could also have been more because you would need to convert electricity to fuel first.

          So I think as a conservative estimate, it kinda works.

        • TeMPOraL 3 minutes ago
          I remeber the book differently - I remember it being primarily about getting exactly this right. Lot of space spent discussing efficiency and losses and comparing apples to apples.

          (Admittedly, I read it many years ago, my memory may be off, though I strongly doubt it.)

      • bryanlarsen 23 minutes ago
        Which means that not including the conversion in the primary comparison is particularly egregious.
    • bryanlarsen 25 minutes ago
      > Prices have come down an order of magnitude since then

      $10/W to 0.30/W is closer to 2 orders of magnitude than 1.

  • sam1r 28 minutes ago
    The original author was blogging just a couple days prior to his death. Rest in peace

    https://itila.blogspot.com/2015/09/what-do-you-tell-children...

  • danrecht 7 minutes ago
    David McKay was a great public speaker as well: https://youtu.be/GFosQtEqzSE?si=Gyrcep1VDae6xDo1&t=110
  • peri-cl 20 minutes ago
    The author is coincidentally the author of a (free-to-read) information theory book which is also popular on HN,

    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34618613 ("Information Theory, Inference, and Learning Algorithms (2003) (inference.org.uk)")

    • esafak 18 minutes ago
      The late author.
  • js8 17 minutes ago
    Love the book, but as others have noted, it is very much dated. Although I believe someone started a project some years ago to update it.
  • jpm_sd 51 minutes ago
    title should be "Sustainable Energy – without the hot air"

    It's a bit out of date at this point. The author passed away in 2016.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_J._C._MacKay

  • perennialreport 29 minutes ago
    Worth reading even with the dated numbers. MacKay's lasting contribution isn't any specific forecast - it's the discipline of expressing everything in the same units (kWh per day per person), which makes energy arguments commensurable instead of vibes-based. Once you've internalized that, most energy coverage in the media starts reading like category errors. The specific figures have moved - solar costs, EV adoption, heat pump uptake - but the arithmetic habit hasn't aged at all.